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This website contains archives of the Tolkien Discussion Group from 2009 to early 2013.

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010

Good Kings, part 2

Tolkien Discussion Group
May 26, 2010
Topic: Good Kings- continued

Present:
AelKennyr Rhiano
Fifi Wickentower
Shawn Daysleeper

Summary:
A good king knows he is the servant of the people, not their master. He does not seek personal power.
A good king can envision peace, can rule in peacetime (which is harder, because people become complacent), and prefers peace to war.
A good king has charisma, but a bad leader with charisma is doubly dangerous because he can more easily convince the people of bad ideas.
We discussed whether Hilter, in his early days, wanted to serve the German people.
Olwë was an example of a good king who did not take it as a personal failure when people did not follow him, or follow as fast as he wanted to move.
Elwë did not do well for his people when he forgot them in favor of Melian. After than episode, he was an example of a good king who was willing to take good advice.


AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Sooo, good kings....
Fifi Wickentower: . . . We talked mostly last week about Denethor and Aragorn . . we had just started talking about what does make a good king.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . OK. What does make a good king?
Shawn Daysleeper: Yes we identified a few things that make good kings
Fifi Wickentower: . . . We menioned, I believe, foresight and the need to put aside his own wishes, if needed for the good of all
Shawn Daysleeper: We also identified a good king has the abilty and desire to rule during peace, as well as during war
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Prefers peace, actually
Fifi Wickentower: . . . A good ruler needs to see as many sides as posible and be able to discern what is true and just and what is not. Yes . . . that is where Denethor fell short, perhaps.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . It is hard to rule in peace, far harder. People become complacent
Fifi Wickentower: . . . He was unable to picture a future without war . . He was a great warrior king from a line of such
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Sometimes, after conflict for so long. all you know is war.
Shawn Daysleeper: We also mentioned willpower
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Definitely
Shawn Daysleeper: and benevolence and charisma
Fifi Wickentower: . . . One who understands rulers are made for people, not people made for rulers
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Fifi, I agree completely.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . But charisma can be a two edged sword
Shawn Daysleeper: yes such as saruman's voice
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Have you ever seen the movie Excalibur? It is based upon the legends of King Arthur? There is a scene in the movie that I think is an undercurrent in Tolkien. As you know the land begins to wither, and Arthur himself is losing vitality, so the knights seek the Grail cup....and Percival, the "Holy Fool" is the one who retrieves the cup in the end...but only by answering the riddle... "what is the secret of the holy cup?" And the answer is that the land and the king are one.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . If one becomes corrupt, so does the other. and Tolkien uses that theme.
Shawn Daysleeper agrees
Fifi Wickentower: . . . In olde times the king was sacrificed each year to ensure the harvest
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Yes, because the king was the people's servant. A lot of people want to rp kings because they perceive it will bring them power and honor. It does not. As we see in Tolkien.
Shawn Daysleeper: Aragorn, a ranger, becomes king of all men
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . and the question is why?
Shawn Daysleeper: He did not seek power.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . A ranger, a loner...a person who has himself to depend upon...he becomes the good king.
Shawn Daysleeper: others sought power, and fail to become good kings
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . When I came to Arda with my group, I had never been a leader. And Phoenix gave me Olwë. Comet told me the following and I believe it sums up Aragorn, and I have tried to live by it here and in rl. "A king walks far ahead of his people and leads them. A GOOD king walks slightly ahead of his people and beckons them to follow. A GREAT king walks with his people, takes their hands, and they walk together."
Fifi Wickentower: . . . So humility
Shawn Daysleeper nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . He asks no more of them than he would do for himself, and often far less.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . What makes a bad king?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . One who sees the people as there for his use, self-serving, arrogant
Shawn Daysleeper: lusts for power
Fifi Wickentower: . . . taking rather than receiving
Fifi Wickentower: . . . one who rules through fear
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Something to remember...I think...if I may ....about the historical background of Tolkien's writing....
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Remember that time period has been called "the loss of innocence."
Fifi Wickentower: . . . yes . . . WWI
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . The Great War, as WWI was called, changed word view. And a question that is sometimes asked...about Hilter...who was admittedly a despot...did he start out self serving? Was he seeking power to serve himself in the beginning or to serve the German people?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . He was appalled by the goings on in the world . . the desolation of war . . that is Mordor to me . . the way he protrayed his feelings about it
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I agree. The belief in the innate goodness of man was sorely challenged.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . Hitler lost control at one point the the sociopaths he surrounded himself with took increasing control. Hitler also had a mystical side . . he had the Spear of Christ and other relics which he thought imbued his vision with righteous power
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . He did, indeed. I have been told that Hilter very much wanted to wage a "spiritual war" as well as a physical one. If he, indeed, started out as "the good king."....then lost that vision....perhaps Tolkien's work is also a warning to us in the form of the two rulers we have been discussing.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . I'm not sure that he ever was the 'good king', though . . He was more determined from the start to create the perfect 'pure' race
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . That was part of why I posed the question.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . and being born of a Jewish mother . . well, conflict within himself. If he were the good king . . I don't think he would have gone that direction . . He never really had an egaliterean view
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Hilter would have never sacrificed himself for his people.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . No . . . but he wanted them to sacrifice for his vision of right and might
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Yet, though his charisma...look how he convinced others of his view. And how many believed in it.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . And all without questioning his authority. baaaahhhhh
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . What keep Aragorn from abusing his authority once he became king?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . He had Jiminy Cricket inside to give him counsel
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . hahahaha
Fifi Wickentower: . . . well - conscience
Shawn Daysleeper: self conciousness?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . And remember...the story of the Noldor...how arrogance led to the Doom pronounced by Mandos
Fifi Wickentower: . . . Yes . . and isn't it ever so . .even in these ahem enlightened times. So like a cream . . a good leader will rise and may also be killed
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I think Aragorn's time as a Ranger created a realization of himself and his awareness of responsibility.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . I do too and also he was close the the Eldar as well as having the bloodline of kings
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I think...blushes...that Olwë was also an embedded, subtle lession about kingship.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . he could truly see a future without war . . a pastoral reward after all the years of war . . he could see a unification
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . As he led the Teleri to the undying lands...every place they stopped...some would remain behind... He could have tried to force his people to all move as one...to follow him without question.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . Olwë is an archetype . . absolutely
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . So a good king is also one who sees the need of the people first, and does not count as failure a lack of blind obedience.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . Olwë is good at not repeating what didn't work . . He lways seems open to trying . . he isn't identified only with his own self worth
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . And Elu, his brother. He was a good king who need how to take and listen to the advice of others...althought his start...was not so glorious. Remember his people had to wait on him...
Fifi Wickentower: . . . hmmmm
Shawn Daysleeper: yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . in the words of Ossy...
Ossy Portocarrero: When this happens... Elwë decides he wants to go back to see the Splendor of Valimar... and to see the other people who were there whom he kisses.
So he strides off into the woods.
He apparently does this ALL THE TIME
But..
The Maia Melian (who is like Yavanna) is All. About. Song. When she's in Lorien singing people literally drop EVERYTHING to go listen to her... gawking with their jaws on the floor.. I mean EVERYONE. Animals, People, Other Ainur! They just RUN over and listen to her singing.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . uh oh
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . about Elu
Ossy Portocarrero: So.. all the nightingales flap after her when she wanders into the woods
She's teaching them bird song.. and tra-la-laing.. (A la Disney's Sleeping Beauty)
right?
SO
Shes walking around, with these birds fluttering around her
All of them singing away like it's normal
so...
Elwë hears her singing right?
And does the stupid 'gawk' thing and just walks towards the noise... COMPLETELY FORGETTING EVERYTHING ELSE HE HAS EVER THOUGHT ABOUT
I mean, his PEOPLE, his LAND, visting the OTHER ELVES... VALIMAR
When he gets to where she is, singing away.. he can't even TALK to her.
He gets totally dumbstruck. He watches her sing for a bit.. and then she notices him
Their eyes meet
Romantic music plays
They walk towards each other, hands outstretched. (Slo-mo)
They touch... hands clasped together
And they just stand, like that... for oh.. years.
Meanwhile.. EVERYONE freaks out.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . lol
Shawn Daysleeper nods
Fifi Wickentower: . . . yes . well . he did have a mild lapse
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . slightly. hahahah
Fifi Wickentower: . . . hahahah
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . But after that....does he become a good king?
Shawn Daysleeper laughs
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Ossy does Tolkien...it is hysterical.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . X rated
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I ...um....left those parts out
Fifi Wickentower: . . . tysm
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yvw
Fifi Wickentower: . . . LOL

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Well....what would we like to talk about next week?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . Shawn, is there a subject you are intersted i?
Shawn Daysleeper: thinking
Fifi Wickentower: . . . Ael??
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . The coming of the elves from the Silmarillion?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . oh . . read a chapter??
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . it's chapter 3?
Shawn Daysleeper: sure :)
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . and Melkor
Fifi Wickentower: . . . sure . . it's been a few weeks since the dwarves and Aulë
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . ok...we will do that

Wednesday, May 19, 2010

Good Kings, part 1

Tolkien Discussion Group
May 19, 2010


Topic: Good Kings
(or, "What Does Aragorn Have that Denethor Doesn't?")

Present:
Shawn Daysleeper
AelKennyr Rhiano
Lihan Taifun
Fifi Wickentower
Dominique Darkwatch

Summary:
Aragorn is an archetypal reluctant king.
He is heretidary leader of the Rangers, the last remnants of the long-ago North Kingdom, and also has some connection to the kingship of the South Kingdom, Gondor, which is now declining.
In his younger days, Aragorn was mentored by Gandalf. Aragorn also spent time in Gondor, as a charismatic and sucessful warrior, under the name Thoringil.
Denethor never was a warm "people person", but he was a strong and wise leader, at least until he came under the influence of misinformation via the palantir. We speculate he may have started using the palantir at the time of his wife's death, shortly after Faramir was born. He would have been especially susceptible to depression then. Sauron skewed what Denethor could see with the palantir, convincing him that defeat was inevitable.
Aragorn also had a battle of wills with Sauron, when he used the Isengard palantir, but Aragorn was better prepared, expected to see Sauron, and was not already depressed, at that encounter. So Aragorn got away much more easily.
Denethor was very personally attached to his power as ruler. We can't imagine him giving that up, and therefore we can't imagine him even accepting Aragorn as the rightful heir of the kings. He might have stalled forever on the legal loophole that Aragorn's ancestor Isildur was only king of the north kingdom.
Aragorn was concerned with what was best for the people. That included not starting public political arguments in the middle of a big war, especially a war he himself might not survive.
Aragorn could envision a peaceful future, and thus as king could lead the people to peace, not to a constant state of war.
Did Eomer have the vision to lead as a peacetime king? We don't see enough of him to tell.


Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . What did you think about this week about kings?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I thought alot about Aragorn at the reluctant king...that almost Arthurian mythos
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Reluctant in what way? I don't remember him that way
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . It would have been easier to remain Strider, no? At first, when we meet him, he is a loner. He joins the fellowship, but he is more bodyguard, more of .....thinks
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I suppose, although he seems to have some responsibilities among the Rangers
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . But even then...Rangers are still not social butterflies
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . true
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . They are tight knit, that is true, but they receive their orders from others. And as Strider, he is but one of many
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Do they receive orders from others?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Someone has to command the rangers, I would think? Would there not be some chain of command?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . And I thought he was their heredetary chief
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . or do I have that part wrong?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Them being all that is left of the North Kingdom. Perhaps I am reading into it what is not there.


{Fifi arrives. Greetings}

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Ael was just starting to explain why he thinks of Aragorn as a "reluctant" king
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I agree he was reluctant. He had to struggle to secure his ruined kingdom. Against people that were currently in charge
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I felt he had to struggle within
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . that would be the north kingdom,or the south, or both?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . The north was destroyed at some time before, the south was week and declining
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . So why didn't he go down decades earlier, and straighten them out?


{Dominique arrives. Greetings}

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . He was being trained by Gandalf
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Was he?I missed that
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . He met Gandalf at age 20 after leaving Rivendell
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Was he trained in an official way, or more like mentored?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . And was being mentored for the next 30 while he was wandering
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . oh, heh heh
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . mentored as I understand it. sorry :)
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . :) That was what I was thinking
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . So I guess it was during that time he learned of his heratage, while Denethor was running the south kingdom Gondor
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Denethor wasn't doing such a bad job of it
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . True, but he was a steward, not a king
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Not sure that mattered much to Denethor
Dominique Darkwatch: . Before or after he started using the Palantir?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . When did he start?
Dominique Darkwatch: . I'm not sure, but I don't think he started his tenure using it
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . probably not
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I don't remember....No, I don't think so, either
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . but he must have been using it for a while, : years, maybe?
Dominique Darkwatch: . And it seems that corrupted him
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Denethor started in 2984 and ruled for about 40 years
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . At the start he was considered a man of great will and foresight. His problem was that he did not connect with his people
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . So they turned to Thorongil
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Thorongil?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . As stated in the early chapters and the Appendices of The Return of the King, Denethor, son of Ecthelion II, was widely considered a man of great will, foresight, and strength. However, he failed to reach out to his people, who flocked instead to Thorongil, an outsider who served Denethor's father with great renown. Thorongil vanished from Gondor four years before Denethor would succeed his father as Ruling Steward. Thorongil (who was secretly Aragorn, Chieftain of the Dúnedain of the North and hence a claimant to Gondor's throne) had advised Ecthelion to put faith in the wizard Gandalf, whom Denethor distrusted.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . ah
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . He married Finduilas, daughter of Prince Adrahil of Dol Amroth. She gave birth to two sons: Boromir and Faramir, before dying young. Denethor never remarried after his wife's death, and became more grim and silent than before.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I knew Aragorn had spent some time earlier in Gondor, incognito
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . So I wondered if he started usuing the palantir after his wife's death.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . When did Sauron capture Minas Ithil and the Ithil palantir?
Dominique Darkwatch: . It may not have been so corrupting until Sauron and Saruman got theirs
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . ya that's what I'm wondering
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . S.A. 3429, to answer Shawn's question
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . A palantir shouldn't be corrupting, in itself
Dominique Darkwatch: . But the tragedy of losing his wife would also make him bitter and more prone to darkness
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Ok, so Sauron had it a long time
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I think he would be given to depression
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . makes sense
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . and then after using it, once he saw that Sauron would have such an overwhelming force. That had to further depress him.
Shawn Daysleeper nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . It is stated that using the palantir aged him quickly, and that Sauron was also responsible for visions that were somewhat skewed.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and Sauron started using that. Yep, putting a little "spin" on the information
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .Yes . . he convinced him that deafeat was 'inevitable'. And then he was also concerned about losing his place as leader to Aragorn and Gandalf
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . However, Aragorn uses the palantir that belonged to Saruman, why wasn't he affected
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Aragorn reported he had a battle of wills with Sauron, when he used the palantir
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Remember he had benefited from instruction from Gandalf and the elves
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . But then, he was expecting Sauron, so he was more prepared
Shawn Daysleeper nods. So aragorn has a stronger will
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . And he wasn't starting out depressed
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . perhaps...yes
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . So sterngth of will may make a good king
Dominique Darkwatch: . Sauron could leverage Denethor's fears against him
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . It had to wear down Denethor to resist Sauron as he did.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . At least lack of will would make a bad king
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .It wasn't denethor's will that was broken . .
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . No, I don't think so. I think that he was just worn down over time.
Dominique Darkwatch: . In the end, it was more his mind
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Although give him credit for holding out 40 years
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . yes, being the attack front of sauron's armies, defensive wall of the west
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .it was the effort of maintaining a distance - while using the palantir over a long period of time
Dominique Darkwatch: . He was still willful in a way
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .he had a very strong will
Dominique Darkwatch: . His judgement was just twisted
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . by sauron
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .Sauron was unable to break it . That is why he tried a spin instead
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .Denethor had a stronger will than Saruman
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . agreed
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . oh, good point

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .i think, tho, that his weakness came from 'personalizing' the rulership
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Denethor was decended from a long line of stewards all incharge of Gondor


{Ael leaves to attend business in Alqualonde.}

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .Rather than the good of the whole . . he was fearful of being supplanted . .and after all . . Aragorn did have a blood tie to the throne
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .Yes he was . .and weren't they all in service to the king of Gondor?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Yes, but the throne was vacant
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . It is hard to imagine Denethor ever accepting any claimant as king
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .yes . . nods. It also clouded his perspective, what he saw as a threat
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and Denethor did raise a legal point that was never answered ... could a descendant of Isildur inherit the throne of Gondor? That could keep lawyers busy for generations
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .my thought too hehe
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . yes, that is like a dethrned king retaking over his country
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Isildur was king of the north kingdom, his brother Anarion was king of the south in Gondor
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . oh that complicates things
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and Denethor raised that objection, with Gandalf. I don't think Denethor would ever have accepted Aragorn as the legal king. So he could have stalled forever, in handing over the government
Shawn Daysleeper nods
Dominique Darkwatch: . But after the death of Boromir...what would be the point?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Maybe another reason Aragorn wasn't in such a big hurry to go down to Gondor and press his claim
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .and perpetuate the division and separation of what could be, under insightful leadership, a unifying opportunity after 3000+ years
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Well, like you said, Fifi, Denethor was worried about his personal position, not necessarily what was best for the country
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .and that is what kept him from being the 'hero king'
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and Aragorn, I think, WAS looking at what was best for the country, and not wanting to start a big political argument, especially in the middle of a war
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .He couldn't evolve into something beyond warrior . . after all, that is what his entire dynasty was based on
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . He had evolved into a politician (Is that "evolved"?)
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .and yes Aragorn . . .
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I understand
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .and to Denethor . . they had gone feral


{Lihan crashed and relogs. Gap in the transcript.}

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .no proper land or leader . . not as he deemed strong and right
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Who is feral?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .the rangers
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . no decent plumbing, nothing!
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Their kingdom was destroyed by Angmar
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .yes!!!! . . . no proper anything . . . not enough structure
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . just trying to survive individually, unorganized men, so feral ya, and no plumbing
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .lol
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I was thinking what a mess it would have been if Aragorn had declared himself king, pushed Faramir aside... and then gotten himself killed at the battle in Mordor. And poor discredited Shawn Daysleeper: . . . wow, didn't think about that
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I think that is one reason Aragorn didn't declare himself king, at that point, knowing he was riding off to another possibly fatal battle
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .alternate reality
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Aragorn knew that defeat was inevitable, unless the ring was destroyed and Sauron vanquished
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . so he didn't bother with politics
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, exactly
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . So why waste time, he cared for his people, he wanted to survive
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Which isn't necessarily what Denethor would have done
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . He wanted men to survive, as a kinderd
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .yes . . . exactly
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . That makes a good king as well, to have benevolence
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . To care about the people
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . exactly
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Whether the people survive was more important than whether he personally survived
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Agree
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .good of the whole . . ability to see what really is and to have a far-sightedness also

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Another thing, Denethor can rule during war, but Aragorn knows how to rule during peace. And envisions peace as the future of Gondor
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . hmmm, good point
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .yes. . . Aragorn is more than just a fine warrior/leader
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . not that Denethor was likely to have any peace
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .He could only envision strife
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Yes, which makes the people depressed
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Yes, he couldn't even imagine it. I think this ties into charisma, which Denethor seems to lack
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . apparently
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . If people like you they will do more for you, easy
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and if you like them, it is easier for them to like you

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . What about the kings in Rohan? Theoden,and then Eomer? Were they good kings?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Theoden was bewitched and Rohan became a puppet state of Saruman
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . For a while. Obviously he wasn't a good king during that time
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . But after he was purified, I think he became better. But he still envisioned war as the future of man. I don't remember much about eomer after he became king
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . That happens so close to the end of the story
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Well, Rohan became part of Gondor, but was allowed to have it's own king? I believe. So not sure how much power he had
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . became part of Gondor?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . of reunited kingdom, sorry
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I thought they continued to be allies. Politically, I'm sure Gondor was much more powerful
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I don't remember much about Rohan after Eomer became king
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . They go back to Rohan; Eomer buries Theoden; he drinks a toast to his sister getting engaged to Faramir; everyone leaves
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Aragorn gave druadan forest to the natives, right?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Sounds familiar
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . The Rohirrim hunted them it seems, under Theoden
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . So he had to make them stop hunting? Make the Rohirrim stop?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Maybe Eomer did. Or aragorn. I know the hunting stopped, so maybe both. Sorry off topic lol
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Eomer was rather in awe of Aragorn, I imagine he would do anything Aragorn asked
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Agree. So maybe Eomer became a good king because of his awe of Aragorn. Maybe he would not been as good if not for Aragorn
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Would that make him a good king, or the puppet of a good king?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . heh, possible



{Dominique leaves. Farewells}.

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . hmmm maybe we should continue next week
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Maybe. Do you want to continue this topic?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .yes
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . sure
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . ok, that's easy

Wednesday, May 12, 2010

Dwarves, part 3

Tolkien Discussion Group
May 12, 2010
Topic: Dwarves - part 3



Present:
Rosie Gray
AelKennyr Rhiano
Lihan Taifun
Shawn Daysleeper
Dominique Darkwatch
InyaRay Oktomica
Tuatha Shippe

Summary:

We continue the question of how Aulë could forget Dwarf Mothers, to accompany the Dwarf Fathers.

We know dwarves have more males than females. Many males did not marry, and 100 years old was a typical age to marry. At that rate, dwarves would be in no danger of overpopulating.
How many dwarves were there in Middle Earth? At least seven major communities, since Sauron gave seven Rings of Power to seven dwarf lords.

We try to imagine dwarf children.

Dwarves are always very private and secretive race, and extremely so in family matters. The female dwarves seldom travelled outside the dwarf communities. (Also it is difficult for other races to distinguish male from female dwarves.) Probably the dwarf women were overprotected, sheltered, and valued primarily for breeding, in a rather Victorian manner.

Most of the book The Hobbit describes Bilbos travels with thirteen dwarves, and we learn very little about the backgrounds or backstories or personal motives of those dwarves. Even making allowances that The Hobbit is a children's story, and not very deep, it still reinforces the idea that dwarves are incredibly private beings.

The evidence we have - or the lack of mention of female dwarves - suggests dwarf society was extremely male-dominated. Women didn't count for much besides reproduction, or occupy positions of power, or do anything of importance or note. Did the dwarves get this male-centric attitude from Aulë? Aulë who didn't bother to tell his wife he was making dwarves.

In the era JRRT was writing, this was as close as one could come to an all-male society - just enough invisible females to sustain the race. Meanwhile, with a large population of unmarried males who don't consider females as worthy companions and who never talk about their private lives, how can we avoid thinking there was a lot of homosexuality? Since the dwarves were created by Aulë, and not directly by Ilúvatar, that would releave the squeamishness JRRT would certainly have felt about a homosexual society. Not being "real" children of Ilúvatar, it would be ok if the dwarves were "flawed", according to JRRT's ideals.

How do dwarves view themselves?
  • determined, dedicated, loyal, stout-hearted
  • strong, masculine, hard-working, stoic, high stamina
  • clever, good with mechanical things, highly skilled, admiring good workmanship
  • long memories, both for favors and for slights
  • private
  • practical, rather than sentimental

Were dwarves as smart as elves? Yes, in different areas. Elves values languages, and dwarves didn't. On the other hand, there are strong resemblances between "mithril" and titanium. If the dwarves were extracting and working titanium, under essentially medieval circumstances, that would be an incredible skill.

Did the dwarves feel closer to Aulë than they did toward Ilúvatar? Probably



Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so, the people who were here last week ... where did you leave the discussion? Did you ever figure out why Aule made Dwarf Fathers and no Dwarf Mothers? Seems like a serious oversight to me
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .No, not really. But. But
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Did he not pay any attention to Yavanna's animals? Was he that clueless?
Rosie Gray snickers
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .We did talk about the fact that we have to remember when Tolkien was creating his works, and societal constructs women were not given places of power in Tolkien very often.
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . It is a reflection of his day
Dominique Darkwatch: . Maybe he was clueless or didn't care
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . True ... but still ... we are talking about forgetting females in a purely reproductive role
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Well, he had to have some clue...he was the spouse of a female Ainur
Dominique Darkwatch: . Well...he was doing this sort of in secret
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Aule was
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Why was he not scolded as was Melkor ?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . He did get a stern talking-to from Iluvatar
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Could it be that he didn't think about dwarven mothers because sex was not that important to Ainur at that time.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Wonder what Dwarves would have unique to being made in such a way
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . That's a good point Ael
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .That is a good question
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Very earthly in nature I suppose.. not ethreal in any way
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Would Aule really grasp the importance of sexual reproduction? What did he make before the Dwarves?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . well, since Iluvatar said he wasn't going to do any modifications on the dwarves, he must have allowed Aule to fix the "mothers" problem, otherwise, this would have been a real short-lived race
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . hmmm... he must have
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . good question, was this Aule's first project in living beings?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Do we know that dwarves reproduce sexually for a fact?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Yes, we do
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . How else would they have reproduced?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Maybe they were clones..
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . oh hmmm. Rosie Gray imagines dwarf scientists
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .There many forms of reprodcution in nature
InyaRay Oktomica giggles
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . We know they reproduce sexually, and we know the gender ration is not even. There are more males than females
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . Right, it is mentioned somewhere I believe
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Many males don't marry, and that they didn't marry until they were about 100 years old
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Well, neither do elves
Rosie Gray nods. But there are far more female elves than dwarves
Dominique Darkwatch: . True
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Silmarillion says "Aule made the dwarves strong to endure" There isn't much else on propogating the race
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .We know they can have children, the dwarves , but later in life, like the elves.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . So did Aule make mothers then?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . For elves, it isn't "late in life". For dwarves ... what is a dwarf life span? 400 years?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .So this idea of long lived races reproducing later in the life....welll, comparative to other shorter lived races.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . "they live long, far beyond the span of Men"
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .I was going to say that was a nice way of preventing elves and dwarves to overpopulate.
Shawn Daysleeper agrees
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Yes, they would need something to keep from overpopulating
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I don't think there were lots of dwarves over time, we are told there was only around 100 at the battle of five armies for example
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. But why would there not be more than that?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . So their numbers must have been small
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .That sounds like they were almost on the brink of extinction.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Lack of mothers? Long gestation time. Life span is long
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . There were seven rings of power given to seven dwarf lords. That implies a dwarf population large enough for seven poweful lords, at least
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Yes, the dwarf lord ringbearers may have been 7 dwarf fathers reborn
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Maybe they just are not very affectionate..
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . Maybe dwarven children are really unbearable
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . lol
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . They say dwarves are very devoted to their mates
Dominique Darkwatch: . hehee
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Dwarven children ... that does sound dangerous
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Are there any tales of dwarven children ?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . They are a secretive folk. I think they must protect their families privacy with great care
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Tales of dwarven children, none that I recall
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Privacy, yes.Dwarves were always big on privacy
Rosie Gray nods
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Maybe Aule just made more...
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . So perhaps there were more female dwarves, and children than were openly acknowledged for some reason. Could be their cultural preference
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . They may be overprotective of the females and children. Maybe a closed society for them
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I agree with Shawn there
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . Perhaps the women dwarves dressed the same as the men... and with their beards and all... outsiders couldn't distinquish them?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . That too. It said somewhere dwarf women didn't travel much outside the dwarf communities
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . oh, that helps a lot,actually
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . it does
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . yes. The women didn't do anything noteworthy, were secretly protected by the named males
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Sounds very Victorian
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . the males themselves were pretty secretive too though
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . agree
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . maybe even more dark ages?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . We know next to nothing about the dwarves in the Hobbit, when the whole story focusses on their journey. Not Thorin. They're private
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . That he had a sister?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . He had a sister?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Well, what I meant
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Like take Bombur, who was his family, did he have sisters?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . One of them had a sister, because some of the other dwarves were his nephews
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . hmmm... or a brother with a wife
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes. And why did they decide to go displace a dragon? Were their opportunities limited at home?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . Not enough challenges at home! rofl indeed
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I think the dragon occupied Thorin's grandfathers old kingdom
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . sure, THORIN had a motive, but why did specifically these other 12 decide to come along
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . exactly, my point
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Your point indeed. I was agreeing
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . 12 main characters, no background. So the main ones are private - dwarves
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . Could be that JRR was planning on another extended backstory for them... at a later time
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . yes
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Well, the story was an extended bedtime story for his children, so, not real deep
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I believe so
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . The Hobbit, yes

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Maybe the dwarves were the ultimate "old boys' club?"
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . Well they certainly seem like they were
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .And females left to shift for their own..in terms of identity and social importance
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . well, not being an old boy, I'm not sure I grasp the significance
Shawn Daysleeper agrees with Ael
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . Insignificant females and youngsters...
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . Nobody comes into any kind of social importance until they are mature, and of course male
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Females were likely present, but not significant enough to be mentioned in the tales
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . That does sound like the dwarves
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . indeed
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Well, part of the "old boys' club" the assertion of male superiority would be maintained
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Did they get that attitude from Aule?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . And the dwarven history that we know, is pretty sketchy anyway
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Ya, like the names of the other 6 fathers
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . It's the way people used to think of history... who was king, who won the war... who were the generals, not much else
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Important, but not clear
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .That is an interesting thought...: did that come from Aule? Was he egotistical?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I'm inclined to agree
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Maybe he didn't tell Yavanna about the creation of the dwarves because he felt it was not important she know
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . He did seem to be brushing her off
Shawn Daysleeper nods
elKennyr Rhiano: And notice how masculine dwarven women are: They have beards.Can be warriors
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . THAT's what male dwarves find attractive?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .perhaps
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . lol
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Perhaps, since homosexuality would have been taboo, this is the closest he could come to an all male society and still have it procreate and thrive?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . interesting thought
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Procreate by some safely invisible females, not too many of them
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . He slipped it in well
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. That is why there is a female presence absent in dwarven society....
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . That makes sense
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . yes, genious
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . And a lot of unmarried male dwarves who don't discuss their private lives
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . That very much fits with the times JRR was living in
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Even procreation to ensure the race survives. And because they were not "children" of Illuvatar, they are second class of a sort
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . oh yes good point Ael
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . agree with Ael, unfortunately that is how it is seen
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . Well it's not as though procreation was really discussed for the other races either
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .However, we have even inferences to draw assumptions: The story of Melian and Elu, for example; other love stories
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . true
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .But none of that for the dwarves, really
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . But they stand out as being fairly unusual examples, most of the stories are adventures
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Agreed
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . the elves and humans seem to have fairly idealized love lives --- following JRRT's ideals
Rosie Gray nods agreement
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Dwarves, we know hardly anything
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Except they were allow to exist because of Illuvatar's tolerant nature
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . It does leave room for all kinds of story development
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Except for being "devoted mates", which is hardly surprising if females were a scares reproductive commodity
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . Perhaps they were more Roman in their private lives: females were pretty much for reproduction, carrying on the old bloodlines, but love, passion... was between males?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . So, with their history, and without the direct connection to Iluvatar ... who knows what they were up to?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Could be
Shawn Daysleeper nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Well, it could also be a way to infer they were somehow "flawed" not being created by Illuvatar.
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . In some ways they are the most mysterious of the folk
Shawn Daysleeper agrees. Definately regarding love passion reproduction
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . true Ael

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .how do the dwarves see themselves?
Rosie Gray looks at the token dwarf amongst them.

{Lihan is wearing her Aztryd, the Firebeard Dwarf, av tonight.}


Shawn Daysleeper: . . . determined
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . loyal
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . stout-hearted
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .how did they see themsleves in comparision to other races?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, determined, loyal
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . clever
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I was comparing dwarves
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .and how did they regard Aule vs Illuvatar?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . what's the polite version of "stubborn"?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . lol
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .willful?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . "not easily distracted"?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . strong willed
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . dedicated
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . strong in all senses
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . "dedicated" sounds good
Shawn Daysleeper agrees
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . long memories for favors given and recieved
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .and for betrayals
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . (I did reread the Hobbit not to long ago)
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . and a lust for treasure
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . They know what they want
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . And admiration for good workmanship
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .jealousy?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . private
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . definitely!
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . secretive
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . practical, rather than sentimental
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . macho!
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .oh, good one
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .macho, yes
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . but not given to flashy heroics
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . toil long
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . work hard
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . stoic too, I think
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . high stamina
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . oh yes
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . very
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . have to be carrying around those big hammers etc
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . Do dwarves think of themselves as clever..intelligent as much as elves?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Do you think they ever felt like they had to make up for being the creation of Aule as opposed being children of Illuvatar?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . they are crafty
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . I think they do, but in different areas
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . how about Ainur and Maiar?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I think dwarves dothink of themselves as clever
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . yes I agree Lihan
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . good with mechanical things
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . and craftsmanship
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . also politics, for that matter
Shawn Daysleeper nods
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . very highly skilled
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . politics?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Why do you say politics?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I'm not sure about intellegence
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .That is very interesting.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Political manueverings within the dwarf clans?
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . so...sizing themselves up against other races is...pointless...they have unique values, so its pointless
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .ohhh, yes'
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Why do you say intelligence, Shawn?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I'm asking. Sorry wasn't clear
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . I was wondering about the politics
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . I said intelligence. Are they as smart as Elves
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . As far as what we would call "engineering", dwarves are unmatched
Shawn Daysleeper agrees
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . some how 'macho' has its stereotype, ya know
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .true
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . Yes and they made the silmaril into a necklace, so they must have been unmatched in that kind of work too
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . very clever
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I think that was a reference to the previous section about the dwarves being a male-dominated society
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . creative intelligence. Intelligence is....dwarfnocentric
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I think the elves looke down their noses at the dwarves, because ... mostly I suppose because they were elves
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . lol
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . but they didn't develop their language - dwarves
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .but there are several different types of intelligence, and language denoted intelligence to the elves
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . aye indeed
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Elves loved languages, dwarves weren't really into that
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Dwarves we re just as smart, just in different areas
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . someone said that
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . elfnocentric
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . yes indeed

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I was just reading something that was saying how much the descriptions of "mithril" resemble titanium
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .It does, doesn't it
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . .If dwarves were mining and working titanium, with medieval technology, or, when everyone else had medieval technology
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Titanium isn't the easiest metal to extract
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .impressive
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Not at all. And even assuming Aule gave them some hints, it still shows incredible skill
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .nod nod nod
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Did Aule continue to counsel the dwarves after the 7 fathers awoke?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . It's hard to imagine him not. His whole motivation was to have some "children'" to teach
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .I agree
Shawn Daysleeper nods
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . I think he would have counselled them
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I can imagine the dwarves would have felt a lot closer to Aule than to Iluvatar
Shawn Daysleeper agrees
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . Since they are kind of made in his own image
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . And he was actually around to help them
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . well
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I wonder if Aule ... I don't know ... kind of encouraged that distant feeling toward Iluvatar

Rosie Gray is wondering if we have exhausted this topic
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Three weeks on dwarves, it has been a long discussion
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . It was interesting though. Sorry I didn't mean to stop you

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Yes, learned a lot
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Next topic? One that came up, sort of tangentially, this week, was the great kings.Who were the really good ones, and why?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . That sounds interesting
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Sounds good to me
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Aragorn is kind of set up as the archetypal king ... but what is it about him?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . hmmm yes.Everyone loves ARagorn
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . And everyone hates Denethor
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . mmm<hehe>
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .There is something appealing about the king who does not want to be king. And who must take a trip of self discovery
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . Who chooses love over a kindom?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . Hides his light under a bushel
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .To find within himself...yes
Shawn Daysleeper nods
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . ㋡
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Many wear a crown...few are kings.
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . His reluctance does not make him a better choice
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .No, it is why he is reluctant
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . That's true
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . And what is it that does make him the better choice? Next week, then!