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Wednesday, March 31, 2010

Fëanor's Oath, part 1

Tolkien Discussion Group
March 31, 2010
Topic: Fëanor's Oath


Present:
Fifi Wickentower
Lihan Taifun
AelKennyr Rhiano

Summary:
Fëanor's Oath (to hunt down anyone who kept a Silamaril from him) applied only to himself and his seven sons, who joined him in the Oath. The Doom of the Noldor, banning them from returning to Valinor, applied to any of the Noldor who followed Fëanor out of the Blessed Lands. We find no record that the ban applies to the children of the individuals who left (although the storyline seems to assume that all Elves of Noldor descent are affected).
It was immature of Fëanor to be so attached to the Silmarili, but realistically what else could you expect, at that stage of his life?
The Silmarili serve a similar plot function to the One Ring - the infinitely attractive but cursed talisman. A similar talisman would be useful for 4th Age roleplay - an embodiment of something highly desireable, with some reason why no one could keep possession for long.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . Surazeus just sent me this {his poem, appended later in this thread.} "Maglor" his name is usually spelled in the book
{Ael is called off on a Peacekeeper emergency.}

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . Well, I would like to know about the Oath and how it affects the children of Earwen.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . did you look that up?
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. But I am still not certain what is means for Earwen's children and their children. They are half Noldor after all.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . but none of them actually joined in the oath. Did they all go to Middle Earth?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . not all I think. Some did, to follow their cousins
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . just looking it up... It says when Finarfin turned and went back home, none of his sons came with him. But earlier Orodreth had been siding with his father Finarfin, so it seems strange that he would go on without him
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . so his sons were spared the Doom?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . it isn't really clear how much of Doom was addressed to all Noldor who left, and how much to Feanor and his sons directly
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . just through swearing the oath . . it affected all coming generations until the end of the Age? or on into Ages beyond?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . I don't think so
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . How far did the Oath and the effects extend, to how many generations?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . oh, here ... "On the House of Feanor the wrath of the Valar lieth ... and upon all that will follow them also it shall be laid also"
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . so only the House of Feanor?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . and those who followed them
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . and all further great grandchildren
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . well, I'm not finding anything about future generations
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . I didn't either
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . just checking :)
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . Will we have to factor in the Oath and the Doom when we talk about 4th Age rp?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . remember, "those who followed" Feanor had already participated in the Kinslaying. I thought there was something around the end of the 3rd Age, that the Valar had lifted the ban, and was allowing the elves to go back home. We know the elves were taking ship back home. I don't remember now which event finally softened up the Valar. Seems like it was in the 3rd Age
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . hmm, which then would lead nicely into a new beginning for elves, in the 4th age
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . a new beginning? Being back in the Undying Lands?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . yes and also having the sanctions lifted by the Valar

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . the Oath .....how did that affect the relationship between the Noldor in Tirion and the Valar?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . I don't think the Noldor who stayed in Tirion were really affected, beyond having most of their relatives leave. After Finarfin came back, he was king in Tirion.
"But in that hour Finarfin forsook the march, and turned back, being filled with grief, and many of his people went with him, retracing their steps with sorrow ... There they received the pardon of the Valar, and Finarfin was set to rule the remnant of the Noldor in the Blessed Realm. But his sons were not with him, or they would not forsake the sons of Fingolfin"
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . How much the Noldor must have felt, to be so sundered.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . hmm
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . yes, a real tragedy for the Noldor, those who went, and those who stayed
[Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . but earlier Orodreth had been arguing on the side of the Noldor not doing anything rash, so I'm surprised he kept going at that point. On the other hand, some of the Noldor were afraid to go back and face the Valar, after the Kinslaying. Maybe that is the situation your grandsons were in
AelKennyr Rhiano nods

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . Fifi, did you get a chance to look up anything this week?
{Ael is called back to Peacekeeper business again.}
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . just a bit on th oath . . .nothing much to add specifically. What did come to mind, though, if I may? Well - it was the light of the silmarills . . .rather the desire/lust to possess that light that started that particular mess, and then, later . . it was the same for the Rings
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . the rings?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . i know ppl have been discussing a great darknes/ enemy rising again . . i think there needs to be a talismnan such as the silamarills or the ring of power, in the 4th age. Something that embodies the light and power . . . .
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . well, it certainly is good for storylines, something everyone wants to get their hands on for one or another reason. So, the Silmarils have the light ... and they are so beautiful that Feanor can't stand for anyone else to have them
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . yes . . nods . . .that's what i thought might be a possibility
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . and, actually Feanor put a curse, not on the Silmaril but on himself and his sons, to get the Silmarils back
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . originally he was more a guardian but it seemed that he became personally atteched - just a bit - lol
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . well, he did make them -- not the light, of course, but the stones
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . yes - and used some of his own essence. so - that was perhaps not well considered
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . making the Silmarils was not well considered?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . using his own essence . . it would be like blood or vital energy . . he said he could never duplicate the stones. The vala were unable to make them
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . the Valar didn't know the recipe
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . but Feanor was not strong enough to (evolved?) to both create the stonesusing some his own self and maintaining the strength to let them go when asked. Thus not well thought out - he didn't know enough to make such a choice. He couldn't see the far reaching effects
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . and how could he have been mature enough to do that? Does anyone start out mature
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . not possible
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . so ... you can say "not well thought out" ... but one can hardly realistically expect him to have been able to do otherwise, at that stage of his life
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . and that's what makes the story lol
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . yep, lots of learning the hard way
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . being unable or refusing to let go of them, though . . . not so good
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . or at least immature
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . for the good of the whole . . for the healing of the Two Trees
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . easy to say when it is someone else who has to do the giving up

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . so what makes for a good talisman? It needs to embody something everyone wants, and there has to be a reason why someone who has it can't keep it
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . it is what the talisman stands for that or what it makes ppl feel . . that is the key
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . the Silmarils had Beauty, and the rings had Power
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . yes, something small and shiny
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . and addictively attractive
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . and what will it embody? The jewels also had the Light
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . Who do we know in marketing? what do people crave? true love, sex, cleaner laundry
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . good question
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . electronic toys
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . power, fame, security,
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . tickets to RedSox games
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . a faster connection and a nicer sl
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . "Fame" we can do - have something that displays who currently owns the trinket. "Power" is maybe more a spellfire issue. "Security", "True Love" ... I don't know how to help with those
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . a better burger?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . if we could taste it ...
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . lol
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . something people have the urge to flaunt, too, not just keep stuffed in inventory
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . but small enough to hide
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . yes
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . gems and jewels lol

Fëanor's Oath -- Reading Material


when Fëanor discovers that Morgoth has stolen the Silmarils:
"Then Fëanor swore a terrible oath. His seven sons leapt straightway to his side and took the selfsame vow together, and red as blood shone their drawn swords in the glare of the torches. They swore an oath which none shall break, and none should take, by the name even of Ilúvatar, calling the Everlasting Dark upon them if they kept it not; and Manwë they named in witness, and Varda, and the hallowed mountain of Taniquetil,vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World Vala, Demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, or any creature, great or small, good or evil, that time should bring forth unto the end of days, whoso should hold or take or keep a Silmaril from their possession."
Silmarillion, "Of the Flight of the Noldor"


after the Noldor have killed "a great part of their mariners that dwelt in Alqualondë" and stolen their swanships, as the Noldor are approaching the northern borders of the Blessed Lands:
"There they beheld suddenly a dark figure standing high upon a rock that looked down upon the shore. Some say that it was Mandos himself, and no lesser herald of Manwë. And they heard a loud voice, solemn and terrible, that bade them stand and give ear. Then all halted and stood still, and from end to end of the hosts of the Noldor the voice was heard speaking the curse and prophecy which is called the Prophecy of the North, and the Doom of the Noldor. Much it foretold in dark words, which the Noldor understood not until the woes indeed after befell them; but all heard the curse that was uttered upon those that would not stay nor seek the doom and pardon of the Valar.

'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.

'Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman {the Blessed Realm}. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief.; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whon ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden,and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.'

Then many quailed; but Fëanor hardened his heart ... But in that hour Finarfin forsook the march, and turned back, being filled with grief, and with bitterness against the House of Fëanor, because of his kinship with Olwë of Alqualondë; and many of his people went with him, retracing their steps in sorrow .... and so came at last to Valinor. There they received the paron of the Valar, and Finarfin was set to rule the remnant of the Noldor in the Blessed Realm. But his sons were not with him, for they would not forsake the sons of Fingolfin.
Silmarillion, "Of the Flight of the Noldor"

Late in the First Age, Eärendil {human on his father's side, and Noldor on his mother's} and Elwing {grandaughter of Beren and Lúthien}, bearing one of the Silmarili, manage to sail to Valinor:
"Eärendil went into Valinor and to the halls of Valimar.... Then the Valar took counsel together ... and Eärendil stood before their faces, and delivered the errand of the Two Kindreds. Pardon he asked for the Noldor and pity for their great sorrows, and mercy upon Men and Elves and succour in their need. And his prayer was answered.

After Eärendil had departed, seeking Elwing his wife, Mandos spoke concerning his fate: and he said: 'Shall mortal Man step living upon the undying lands, and yet live?' But Ulmo said: 'For this he was born into the world. And say unto me: whether he is Eärendil Tuor's son fo the line of Hador, or the son of Idril, Turgon's daughter, of the Elven-house of Finwë?"' And Mandos answered: 'Equally the Noldor, who went wilfully into exile, may not return hither.'"
 Silmarillion, "Of the Voyage of Eärendil"

at the end of the First Age, after Morgoth is defeated, and Fëanor and his seven sons are dead:
"Then Eönwë as herald of the Elder King summoned the Elves of Beleriand to depart from Middle-earth. ....

In those days there was a great building of ships upon the shores of the Western Sea; and thence in many a fleet the Eldar set sail into the West, and came never back to the lands of weeping and of war. ... And when they came into the West the Elves of Beleriand dwelt upon Tol Eressëa, the Lonely Isle, that looks both west and east; whence they might come even to Valinor. They were admitted again to the love of Manwë and the pardon of the Valar; and the Teleri forgave their ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest.

Yet not all the Eldalië were willing to forsake the Hither Lands where they had long suffered and dwelt; and some lingered many an age in Middle-earth."
Silmarillion, "Of the Voyage of Eärendil"


Wednesday, March 24, 2010

Elves

Tolkien Discussion Group
March 24, 2010
Topic: Elves, continued

Present:
Fifi Wickentower
Lihan Taifun
AelKennyr Rhiano
InyaRay Oktomica
Ossy Portocarrero
Harumi Oanomochi
Dominique Darkwatch
Wolfstar Raymaker
Kratholis Vanistok
Sunshine Hanfoi

Summary:
What happened to the Elves who did not take the ships from the Gray Havens to the Undying Lands, who stayed in Middle Earth? Most likely they either adapt (such as learning to mentor humans) or gradually lose interest in the world and withdraw.
Humans are jealous of elven immortality, and elves are said to be jealous of the human "gift of death."
We discussed the realm of Ithildor, Wolfstar and Harumi's home.
We know nothing about whether or not Gil-Galad left any descendants behind when he went into Mordor.



AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . My memory was bad
Fifi Wickentower . . . . . and i forgot it was the oath :(
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so which topic do we want for tonight?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . i would certainly like to know more about the oath . . . but am a bit under-prepared :(
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so we could save that for next week, as an option
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I would like to talk about Feanor's oath, too.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . maybe next week, then, so people have more time to read up

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . what loose ends did we leave about elves? "Do elves ever get bored?" (That wasn't exactly where we left the question)
Ossy Portocarrero bites back a smartaleck answer
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . i thought .. perhaps they were the first creation to experience time

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so elves ... elves are thefirst beings to experience time
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . so perhaps did not handle it easily
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . would it be hard to learn?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . but they never knew any different
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . It is hard to imagine having "time" be a new concept
Dominique Darkwatch: . Hmm...sort oflike breathing
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . the Valar did not have finite time though
Ossy Portocarrero:. . . . but the Ainu, before the elves... had no real concept of time. But elves feel time differently than humans. That was kind of the point. Elves and dwarves live longer, so they experience time in large spaces
Kratholis Vanistok: . . likewise with different creatures

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . might we ask what tribe of Elves our guests from Ithildor are?
Harumi Oanomochi: . . We are Moon Elves
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . anything you would like to say about Moon Elves?
Harumi Oanomochi: . . As Darthien del lil drathir we have a closeness to the lunar cycles and the creatures that associate with the moon...though we feel close to all elvenkind and all peaceful races.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . lovely

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . we haven't found our controversial question yet for the evening ....
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . well, I have heard an elf claim descent from Gil....let me look at how that is spelled.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . yes . . that was a bold statement
Dominique Darkwatch: . Gil-Galad?
Kratholis Vanistok: . . I have one, cant remember the name of the event, but it's one that would come across with time
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yes, thank you. I drew a blank
Kratholis Vanistok: . .  What happens to elves if they don't go to... evermeet is it?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . or perhaps we might speak more of this descendant? alledged
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . and ....oooopps, forgive me. Please go ahead
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Could you explain, Kratholis?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Please, Kratholis, continue. I can wait :)
Kratholis Vanistok: . . well, The only times I ever hear of it is in DnD, but I never figured out what happens to elves if they dont go to Evermeet [if that is even the place]
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and Evermeet is...?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . i think it is like the Halls
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . are we talking about dead elves?
Kratholis Vanistok: . . I dont know, the equivilent to where the elves go when they have to go to the ships? could never remember the name
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . the Grey Havens? to take the ships back to the Undying Lands?
Kratholis Vanistok: . . yes! that's it
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . ah! Some elves do stay in Middle Earth
Kratholis Vanistok: . . so, my question is, wha happens to an elf that doesnt go to the undying lands?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . some may still be here in the 21st century
Wolfstar Raymaker:. . . There are a few speculations on the subject of those they chose to stay.....Some say they lose there immortality some say they find a new haven though it is only speculation
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Elves who die pass to the halls of Mandos.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, but it is fairly rare for an elf to be killed. I didn't know an elf could lose immortality
Dominique Darkwatch: . Hmmm...not lose I don't think...
Harumi Oanomochi: . . The undying lands in the West are a haven, but it may well be that some remain. Few elves die though some reach advanced age and retire from everyday existence.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . it was said ... they get bored
Ossy Portocarrero:. . . . why? When they get bored or tired of living they take the ships .. if they arent bored, they hang around. Wasn't that the point?
Dominique Darkwatch: . The term is, they "grow weary of middle earth"
Ossy Portocarrero:. . . . to grow weary of something means you're bored of it
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . They must become a more and more elusive race. Humans don't see them much
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I think those who remain either adapt to the new world, the changes or history or they withdraw more and more
Dominique Darkwatch: . Not bored as much as tired of it...tired of the persecution, the violence of humans
Ossy Portocarrero:. . . . with withdrawal, is there madness? Well it could be either or Dominique, couldnt it?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . perhap some have a reason to stay
Dominique Darkwatch: . It could be, but elves are very creative beings...not prone to boredom
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . notes that Dominique is very young as elves go :))
Dominique Darkwatch: . But they are prone to being weary of grief
Kratholis Vanistok: . . is an old old OLD draggy
Sunshine Hanfoi: . . . . wasn't Melkor's influence greatest in those Eastern lands... so their hearts would have grown cold perhaps
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . what might motivate them, Inya?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . a promise
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Hold on... If humankind does not see them then how can they be persecuted?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . a good reason to keep out of sight
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . By the 5th age, human would begin to doubt their very existence

Harumi Oanomochi: . . Elves sometimes refer to humans as having "the gift of death" and strangely enough, the humans think that immortality is a blessing and they crave it...yet either one, death or immortality is neither pure blessing nor pure curse...they just are and one lives with each as one is able.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, each jealous of the other
Harumi Oanomochi: . . unfortunately.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . you know, everyone talks as though the elven lifespan is a curse. : I do not know that it is.
Harumi Oanomochi: . . it's a challenge, but no curse. *smiles*
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . nod nod nod
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And I think that is a biased outlook.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . But we speak of them weighed down by their years, of being bored, heavy with grief.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . A Blessing . . as is any gift of life from Illuvatar
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . .  How would we really know what it is like to live that lifespan?
Harumi Oanomochi: . . and that is why we elves take care to meditate...to "reverie" and sort through our memories and thoughts and in a way file them...it's not unlike having an inventory...it gets out of hand if we don't stay on top of it.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Well, we age differently than humans.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . wow, like sorting your photographs
Harumi Oanomochi nods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . isn't that what bards do, for a society? tell the stories, sort things out, make sense of it all
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . and oral history
Dominique Darkwatch had never thought of it that way
Harumi Oanomochi: . . I think the difference between human and elven memories is that we recall something and we are back in the moment...we see the memory all around us, not in a two dimensional remembrance like a photo, but everywhere as it happened. *shrugs* Or so it was explained to me by my elven teachers.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . I wonder what an elf would say today
Fifi Wickentower would like to experience memory
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . When humans age, their oldest memories become sharper. Their most recent is less sharp. or, I've heard they forget and live only in the moment
Harumi Oanomochi smiles and nods..."Aye, but that is because when older memories are made they are recalled many times and patterns established...whereas with the more recent, as they age, it's harder to hold onto the memories...or so I'm told."
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . nods . . . how curious

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . Do you have much contact with humans? or are invisible, also, to them?
Harumi Oanomochi: . . I did at one time. But now we live apart from most of them, though we have an adopted human daughter.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . oh my!!! and, if I may ask, how did that come abut?
Harumi Oanomochi: . . She needed guidance and protection and we were able to provide it. *Smiles at her beloved husband* Wolf found her.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . how kind
Fifi Wickentower smiles. How fortunate and generous
Dominique Darkwatch listens with much interest
Harumi Oanomochi: . . She is a joy to us. Though we also have our natural elven children, Meristrae and Istarion now. Also great joy.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . a busy household
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . do you see many other elven clans?
Harumi Oanomochi: . . We have been known to visit Sylvhara and so have met many folk.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . a beautiful place
Harumi Oanomochi: . . And we are exploring other realms as well now that our homeland is established.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Inya, did you ever explain what might give elves renewed interest in life?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . . I think to stay they would have to become interested in humans
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . would have to? why?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . taking in human children?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . yes .. mentoring perhaps, as their own race dwindled. It wold be natural
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . well. . then as our good friends here have done, then :)
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . yes.. so sweet
Dominique Darkwatch: . But as a human....your daughter is not immortal as the elves
Harumi Oanomochi: . . No...she is not...she ages as any human young woman does. But her nature is elf-like and we encourage her to live as we do.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . But did Tolkien say the elven race would dwindle precisely, or do we get that from other traditions?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . and other traditions see th elves quite differently
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I remember elves inTolkien saying their race was dwindling. But remember those were the same elves heading for the ships. We don't hear much about about the attitudes of the elves who are enjoying staying.
Harumi Oanomochi: . . Well, we "undwindled" the race in December when I gave birth. *laughs* twins
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . oh my
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . oh, these are very young children, then!
Harumi Oanomochi: . . aye, but they grow too quickly in the magic of our realm.

Dominique Darkwatch smiles: Your realm sounds like an interesting place
Harumi Oanomochi smiles and nods. "You are all welcome to visit."
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . well,of course, THEY live there
AelKennyr Rhiano smiles
Harumi Oanomochi laughs. We like to think that we remain among the other races because we are an influence for good.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . have you a sea?
Harumi Oanomochi: . . Sadly no...we are landlocked save for a long river.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . and the river??? does it flow to a sea?
Harumi Oanomochi: . . eventually, yes....of course, but it goes through many lands, many dangers...many places where time itself is uncertain.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . in features and coloring, you look very closely related to the Teleri.

InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . wondering if the elves get bored in the Undying Lands..

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I was curious to know the fate of the line of Gil-Galad in Middle Earth.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Was it known that Gilgalad had a family? Is anything known about Gilgalad's familiy situation?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . I don't know. That was my question, I guess.
Harumi Oanomochi: . . It is said that Gil Galad disappeared into Mordor.
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so did Isildur, but he left a family behind back home
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Did Gil-Galad?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I'm not sure it ever said
Dominique Darkwatch: . I do not recall either
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . elves marry young, so he certainly could have
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. Would a descendant of his been seen as a king?
Dominique Darkwatch sighs: Lord Varanwe claims many things
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . and what would be his to rule?
Dominique Darkwatch: . Most of the Noldor left middle earth in the end
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . if it were true?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes, I am not sure if the Nowell, I was just curious.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . perhaps this is a good stopping point? next time, the Oath of Feanor?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . oath of Feanor, sounds good
Harumi Oanomochi curtsies...thank you m'lord Olwe
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Hope to see you again
Harumi Oanomochi: . . You shall indeed. and I look forward to exploring your lands and getting to know your people.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . please do
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . You are most welcome.
Harumi Oanomochi: . . We want to become more active in the clans of all elves in this world.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . as do I.

Wednesday, March 17, 2010

Why Elves and Ainur Don't Understand Each Other

Tolkien Discussion Group
March 17, 2010
Topic: Groups of Elves
quickly turning to "Why Elves and Ainur Don't Understand Each Other"

Present:
Fifi Wickentower
AelKennyr Rhiano
Lihan Taifun
Dominique Darkwatch
InyaRay Oktomica
Summary:
After Oromë found the first elves and invited them to move to the Undying Lands, the Vanyar and Noldor travelled with good progress. The Teleri (or Lindor, as they called themselves) moved more slowly, and at each stopping point groups split off and stayed behind, becoming various tribes of "wild" elves of Middle Earth.

This splintering would have been very hard on Olwë's sense of leadership.

Much of what appears to be "aloofness" on the part of the Valar may be lack of social skills. The Ainur never had to work at being a community, and so never learned the social niceties. It was the elves who had to invent what it meant to be "family" and "friends", and how to treat each other. The Ainur started out with good intentions, but zero managerial skills.

The elves (despite their appearances) were all essentially children. The Ainur (despite appearances) were all unskilled new parents or untrained rookie managers. All with the added disadvantage of never having seen these relationships before. The stage was set for misunderstandings and disappointments.

It would be a great shock to the Elves when they realized that the Valar were neither all-knowing nor all-powerful.

While some of the Ainur wanted to help the elves, this was not strictly the Ainur's responsibility. The Children are, after all, "Children of Ilúvatar", not of the Valar.

Do Elves ever get tired of life? Do Ainur? Or is boredom a form of "wishing things were different" that would not occur to Ainur totally in harmony with their place in the unverse?



AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . So tonight we talk about elves. AelKennyr Rhiano smiles
Dominique Darkwatch: . Yay elves!
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Correct me if I am wrong, but most of the Silmarillion really talks about one clan of elves above all others...the Noldor.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . mostly, and some about the Sindar
Dominique Darkwatch nods: So it seems
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . mostly because the 1st age?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I thought because the Vanyar and the Teleri were living happy lives and that doesn't make a good story
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Until the Kinslaying. But that is truly the last mention of the Teleri.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and maybe a brief mention that the Teleri visited Numenor
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . sigh . .
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . oh, yes, true
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . We know there are "wild" elves. but more of them we really do not know.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . we presume they are ancestors of the drow, but we don't know that for sure
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . could some of the wild elves be the missing Teleri (know i'm mixing ages) --- Drow - that is what i know very little of
Dominique Darkwatch: . Wild Teleri?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . but the wild elves are also the ancestors of other clans of elves that arose in Middle Earth.Well, actually, you {Dominique} are Teleri. Your ancestors can be traced back to Teleri.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . I know that my husband Orome discovered the elves.. in the first age
Dominique Darkwatch: . Really?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . or, to be more accurate, the Lindors, which is what the Teleri called themselves. AelKennyr Rhiano nods. I'm right about this, aren't I, Lihan? and yes, Fifi has a point about missing Teleri :)
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . The Sindar certainly are Teleri
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And they became a clan unto themselves, certainly.
Dominique Darkwatch nods and giggles: Ah! The Lindors, yes! Lindors are they not related to the Lindens?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . All along their journey, fractions of the Teleri would remain behind and become a new clan of elves. And the Sindars themselves arose from Teleri ancestry.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I suppose elves from earlier groups who dawdled became Teleri?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . no, That I would not claim, but no other group has such a history as the Teleri. During the trek to the Shining Lands, at each stopping point, a group of Teleri remained behind.-- each of these groups.-- While Olwe had to marshall the rest and lead them ever onward.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . It was worth the triup
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And we do not know the fate of these groups, not all of them.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Very few of the groups, really, just that there were those various elf tribes
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . So, yes, Lady Dominique, the chances are very good that you have Teleri blood.
Dominique Darkwatch listens intently: So it would seem most who stayed behind were of the Teleri
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . If only they had all followed Orome in the beginning...
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . if only ...
AelKennyr Rhiano nods quietly.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . the unwilling ... thier choice
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . more like the frightened. We were children. For all that we had adult form.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . true
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and Melkor had already planted rumors
AelKennyr Rhiano nods As for Olwe, he never intended to rule but to follow Elu. He was an unwilling leader when it was thrust upon him, I think.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . But he rose to the need
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . but Elwe had gotten lost! Melian was NOT helping here. This is no way to run an evacuation
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . how terribly lonely he must have felt inside...leading them while the whole time not knowing what he was doing or what he was heading into.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . or what had happened to his brother
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . To lead is ever to be lonely
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . and then at every stopping point to have a group splinter off...how that must have crushed his self esteem and sense ot leadership.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . did the earlier groups have people splinter off like that?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . no, not repeatedly, like the Teleri.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . maybe it was a relief? Maybe on purpose - like bread crumbs on the trail?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . perhaps it was theirs to be ever wanderers
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I don't know
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . at least one group would be safe - not knowing what the journey or future would bring
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I think, in those days, what kept him going was a blind trust in the Valar
Fifi Wickentower nods... yes
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . which happened to be well founded, but you didn't know that then
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . no, not at all
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . we were pretty new at leadership, too
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes, yes, and I am sure to a young Olwe, at times, it felt like his trust had been misplaced. As people stoppped and refused to go on.
Dominique Darkwatch: . Yes, the Valar seemed to be quite aloof for the most part
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . As he moved forward, the lies of Melkor spreading. We elves loved Oorome but were also afraid of him.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . He can be fearful in his anger
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And Osse was a temperamental Ainu
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . well ... it seems like the more involved the Valar get,the worse we make the situation
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And Ulmo, though he loved the Teleri was more in love with seas.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . maybe we never got very good at management
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . in a sense the Valar are out of time in relation to the others
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . if the elves are looking to the Ainur as 'savior' . . . . remember, they are Spirits
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I believe we were looking for fathers and mothers
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . guidance
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . having none for ourselves in those first days.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . a way was prepared that would be followed
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . protection
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . love
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . yes
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . The way was prepared with great love, but one cannot follow a path for another
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . but not great warmth.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . and the sense of not being 'alone' in a new world with no history to draw from
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . exactly.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . A chlld must grow
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . but we never knew childhood. Not the Eldars.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . warmth is a relative concept
Dominique Darkwatch: . I just think Manwe and Varda should have come down off the mountain a bit more in the early days
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Even Yavannah was aloof from the elves.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . We didn't know much more about elves than you knew about the Ainur
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . Love is often shown by one and not recognized by the recipient as love
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . true, Lihan. In a way, we were all children. Only Elves didn't know that.
Dominique Darkwatch: . Orome was one of the few who bothered to meet the elves where they were
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . he was hunting ..always far afield
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and he inadvertantly scared the daylights out of them
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . nod nod nod nod
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . big and noisy
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . A slayer of beasts cannot be as a flower
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . We were scared out of our elven pants.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . Elves were pioneers in a new manifestation
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . "Congratulations, you are serial number 000000001"
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . hahahaha
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . so true

{Fifi crashes and relogs}
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . .The Valar were initially separate so much from each other... it was how they were made. Perhaps a great gift to them
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and, we never had to work at being a community, or getting along. It is a skill
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . It woud explain an apparent lack of care to elves
Dominique Darkwatch: . Well, they had to work together against Melkor
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . We can work together, yes. But I meant, it isn't something we had to WORK at, or learn how to do. We were all together before Ea
Dominique Darkwatch: . oh, right
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so, social skill, the little things of going out of your way to do something nice for someone, that wouldn't even occur to Ainur
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . The elves also pioneered entirely new ways of interacting . . family friends etc
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . because they had not experience of it
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . yes, so charming
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, so the elves really were ahead of us there. Not that you knew that.
Dominique Darkwatch: Well...it does seem the elves had to invent pretty much everything
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . none ever had to our knowledge . . the elves were an entirely new concept - The Ainur were blown away lol
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . the world was not for the Valar.. but for the children
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . i don't know i'd say 'ahead of' . . in that it was an entirely new way of manifesting for Illuvator
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . exactly!! The world and the children wree created for each other
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Elves were OF the world, The Ainur are not. .. what she said.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . like giving your child a place to live
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . and then stepping away to let them
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . yes!!! . . . it's just that because of the great love the Ainur have for Er . . . Anything that was created was 'good' and this was so out of the 'normal' that their curiosity was piqued

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . How, in the 4th Age, how would the Ainu see the elves? How do you think the elves see themselves?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . By the 4th age, most of the elves have come back to the Blessed Lands. They have had their turn at Middle earth, and most ofthem are tired of it
Dominique Darkwatch: . In the 4th age, I think remaining elves in middle earth are like an indigeninous people who are in decline
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . good analogy
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . as the world became denser with each passing age . . .so the elves started to lose their vibrancy and oneness with the world
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and the elves in the Blessed Lands are OLD
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . and so 'appear' to be immortal
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . but they are tired and bored, and envy the humans who can die and move on
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . that is the 'strangeness' of the gift
Dominique Darkwatch: . Tired and bored?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . well, the Noldor who returned are
Dominique Darkwatch: . Tired, yes, since they had been so busy either causing or getting into trouble!
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I sort of imagine even the Vanyar must be feeling like they have already done everything they wanted to do
AelKennyr Rhiano blinks
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and even living happily for a few more millenia is just more of the same
Dominique Darkwatch: . Well, that is a very mortal way of seeing it, I think
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . maybe, not like I would know
Dominique Darkwatch: . The elves, like the Valar, found joy in creation
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I think that for a long time after the Teleri came to the shining Lands, they knew great joy.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . may be not so much when Man was creted
Dominique Darkwatch: . And it is said that Eru created something new in every age which had not been seen before
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Do you ever run out of new songs to write?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . I was wondering if one grows tired of such. It seems a bottomless well

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And unlike the Noldor, through their knowledge of Ainur like Ulmo, Osse and Unien, they feel obedient to the wishes of the Valar, but after the kinslaying. I wonder if at least Olwe would have felt a little betrayed by the Valar, by the Noldor. He protected and guided them to what was supposed to be a safe land. Instead their blood stained the harbor.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I wonder how long before Olwe noticed that the Valar didn't know everything
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I wondered that, too. I wondered how long he mourned and kept apart. Tried to protect his people. Perhaps this is why the Teleri dropped out of the history.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . after the kinslaying, you mean?
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and/or assuming that was when he realized the Valar were finite and fallible?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . that must have been very frightening to him
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . ahem . . . . finite?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . well, we don't know everything, we can't fix everything
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . and fallible assumes a predicted outcome fueled by expectations
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . and suddenly, he realized taht.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . the elves had expectations that the vala were under no obligation to fulfill. If they want to blame - the Illuvatar would be the choice... but because they couldn't actually 'see' or communicate directly the elves chose the only ones they did have limited acces to - those few vala who chose to interact
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and, what is more, that we didn't have the social skills of persuasion to work with a bunch of upset Noldor
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . how did we choose? We did not.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . no??
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . We didn't select Osse over Nienna. It was Osse who befriended us. And Unien and Ulmo. Manwe chose to remain apart, so did others.
Dominique Darkwatch nods: they can create earth, sky and moon but can't stop the Noldor from stealing and burning some ships
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . They could not stop them from slaying their kin.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . And we did try to stop the Noldor, and failed
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . We have free will. You did try, but the bottom line is that the noldor had free will
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . free will, yes, great mistakes to be made. It must be so
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . but Fifi was saying "expectations that the Valar had no obligation to fulfil"
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I was wondering about that
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . in this case, we did want the Noldor to settle down, and not do anything rash
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . we tried, as much as we could without forcing them ... not very skillfully, and maybe nothing would have worked
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . in the larger picture . . . . . . Arda was for the elves . . . Illuvatar did not require that any Valar participate
Dominique Darkwatch: . It seems the Valar were charged with caring for the children of Iluvatar, were they not?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . for preparing a place
Dominique Darkwatch: . Eru gave them a brief glimpse of the elves before they came to be...and many of the Ainu loved them
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . but they were not charged with being the 'parental units'
Dominique Darkwatch: . They anticipated their arrival....so much that Aule could not wait
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . individual choices
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . one can anticipate the flowering of a field with great joy. The elves were their own... of Illuvitar, not created by the Valar
Dominique Darkwatch: . But this was a big reason why many Ainur came to Arda
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . like going to see a new art installation
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . We did bring the elves to the Blessed Lands to keep them safe
Dominique Darkwatch: . The only one who really pays a lot of attention to the elves in middle earth is Melkor!
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . and he was power mad
Dominique Darkwatch: . He was able to use the aloofness of the Valar to sow seeds of fear
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . surprising how little attention most of the Valar pay to Middle Earth
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . Orome was one of the few who was known to go there
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, and Yavanna
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . and that was to prepare
Dominique Darkwatch nods: once the Valar get settled, they seem to confine themselves to their own little corner. W hy didn't THEY get bored?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . the elves only can know a small part of the totality of the Valar . . . what says that Arda is all and everything to the Valar?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . who says we aren't bored?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . *not bored lol
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . Boredom is a form of objection. If one konws this will serve no purpose, perhaps it just does not occur
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . a form of objection?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . it is refusal to accept what is
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . wow, I need to think on that awhile :)
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Yavanna probably gets very excited about each new flower
Dominique Darkwatch smiles and nods: Yes...but what does she do during the winter?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Winter isn't that long. Besides, now the earth is round, and there are two hemispheres
Dominique Darkwatch smiles: so it is always spring somewhere
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . yay !!

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . and that is exactly the point!!!!! an elfcentric point of view
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . only an elf could invent such a phrase
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . there is much more to be known than appears to be
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . The smaller perspective unable to grasp the larger. The elves did not understand the Valar.. but nor really did the Valar understand the elves
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . perhaps if you think of it in terms of . . . . . valar have never had a body
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . ok - valar+nor body (as an elf would think of one), totally different type of experience - one step denser manifestation elf to valar. Of course it would be hard to relate,and the natural inclination is to expect the 'other' to think and perceive and be as we are. Less so from valar to elf . . yet from elf to valar i believe elf would expect that
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . The elves expect the Valar to think like elves?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I think you do have something
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . valar would think like they do . . thus the reputation for aloofness'
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . At least in the beginning. A 4 year child expects everyone to see the world as he does
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . what other explanation when i hear that the valar are aloof, removed , uncaring?,
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Babies have to learn "Me/not me"
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . and sees himself as the center
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and teenagers ... "my parents don't understand!"
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . but the Valar would be doing the same thing
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . would they?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I think so. Becaues when would they have ever had another sentient life form in their experience? outside of God
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . all of tolkien is from the Elves point of view ie: elfcentric
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . just a couple of chapters about the Valar, and most of that is general descripitions of the archetypes
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Is it not more Noldor/Sindar centric?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . nod nod I never said teleri-centric
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . oh, I know :) I meant that the view was even more narrowed in its view
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . oh yes!! and you may find that it narrows even more down to each individual :D
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . at least the overarching story of the Silmarils means the focus is on the Noldor, mainly on the sons of Feanor, who were bound up in the oath
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . We could talk about that oath and the implications next time, if you guys wanted. It is really important in Tolkien's work I think
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . oh, that is a good topic. That is what drives the plot

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . just a quicky, tho . . . what am i missing? where is drow in tolkien?
Dominique Darkwatch: . Eol is the only named one.That I know of
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . In Tolkien? I don't remember drow in Tolkien.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . nor I
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . well, I thought the description of the "wild" elves, who never even started on the road to Aman sounded a bit like drow... uncivilized, amoral ...but, they aren't really in the story
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . i think not a tolkien creation
Dominique Darkwatch: Aredhel's husband was a dark elf
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, except for him
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I thought the wild elves were descendants of those who did not travel to the undying lands.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . there are night elves, dark elves, drow . . not all the same
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . there, that shows what I know
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . and not all are wilde elves
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I would think that drow might be the descendants of those elves who were "turned" by Melkor.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . but not all the way to orcs
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . right
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . well - i have to do more research - just wondered if i was missing something really obvious - like i am wont to do :P
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . so - next week, the oath